Reasons For Choosing WPF Over ASP.NET For Our Very Large Project

Updated On 12/21/2007

Preface

These are the thoughts of a very small company architect & developer trying to stay afloat in the ocean of changing and evolving technologies.

Anytime you write an article that defends a position or decision you make, you run the risk of coming off negative or one-sided. Sometimes a negative that one solution has can be taken as bashing of the solution just by bringing it up. Anyone who knows me, knows that is not my intention or the way I operate, not at all. I may step up on my soapbox once or twice, but have tried to limit this so the reader won’t get mad at me and the miss the underlying point of the article.

I love ASP.NET, WPF, WCF, Visual Studio and the other super technologies and products that Microsoft delivers and supports, period.  I respect the fantastic and super bright folks at Microsoft.

So put down the spears, guns, atomic warheads, C# & VB.NET hatchets and walk a mile with me I my shoes. Try to understand the issues facing this front line architect and .NET developer.

Come and visit my world…

Background

I’ve been developing commercial e-commerce web sites since the days of NT4 and ASP 3.0. Some of these sites are still in production today. I worked in New York City for an ISP and really enjoyed the work.

My current company, emGovPower has a full featured Citizen Web product that our customers use to expose a lot of their backend data to their citizens. The product allows their citizens to view detailed information about their utility billing, permits and property tax accounts and pay bills online.

We have one customer, Havelock, NC that has many Marines living there. So for them to pay their bills online is a great feature that borders on a necessity. I was stationed at Cherry Point MCAS for 6 of my 12 years in the Marine Corps. Love Havelock, NC and have great friends who live there.

I also wrote a full blown Tax Assessor application for Williamsburg, VA using ASP.NET and they rave about it.

I could go on, but at this point, you must be thinking, with a track record of successful ASP.NET applications and web sites, why the change and start a new project with WPF?

This is a good question. Be sure, I had to fully explain this request to the owners of my company and the final decision to customers who were expecting an ASP.NET Ajax product.

Maintainability Over Time – #1 Reason

The browser and all the baggage associated with it is the #1 reason I pushed for and we chose WPF over ASP.NET. ASP.NET was not the issue, the browser is.

The unbridled browser that for whatever reason, no vendor can seem to support the established WC3 standards. I have trouble with vendors not supporting WC3 standards. Worse, vendors change the browser rendering behavior between their own releases, causing no shortage of headaches for web developers.

Two years from now, no telling how the browser will be rendering content. Even for the demo ASP.NET AJAX application I did, I had to code for IE6, IE7 and had to provide special setup directions for IE7 on Vista so they could print reports. Remember the “peek-a-boo” bug? Better not go there.

What happens after we deploy an application with 500 forms? We will always have the ongoing headache of customers reporting that, “I just installed (new O/S, new browser, service pack, etc.) and the page does not render as before.” Can you imagine having to touch 500 forms or even 200, just so we can support 2-5 versions of IE?

WPF solutions, like WinForms are not affected by the hosting system. So two, three or four years from now, our WPF application will run just like it did the day the customer received it.

I want to spend our precious resources on application features and functionality, rather than another workaround for the new browser version compatibility issue.

The above section is about the browser, not ASP.NET.

Visual Studio

The changes to Visual Studio from just 2003 to 2005 in the ASP.NET area, were DRAMATIC. New controls that had less functionality than the previous version. Example; Drop a Dataset on an ASP.NET page. Now try to set the Data Binding on a Textbox using the property grid in Visual Studio 2005. Can’t do this in VS2005. This was standard practice in VS2003. Have not checked VS2008 yet. Still can’t understand this.

I love AJAX, but it’s an emerging technology. The advances in the last two years are just plain awesome. For web sites that are 20 to 30 or less pages, who cares if the API changes every 6 months. Just fix it and move on, next. But changing 200 – 500 forms and sub forms is just too high a price to pay so the web page can post back without refreshing. Again, not bashing, just listing things that I face.

If we start down this path now, what about the development environment in two – four years?  When I install VS how will that impact the maintaining of our application?  I’m very concerned about this.

Currently, I have two machines. A VS2003 and VS2005-2008. I have to maintain a separate system for VS2003 due to the glitches and the environments (VS2003 & VS2005 & IIS) not playing well together. This way our developers don’t have to employ workarounds to get their work done.

A modern Microsoft developer simply does not have the time to be fooling around with tools that are not 100% rock solid, period. There are so many technologies today, compared to 5 – 10 years ago. Staying current is a full time job, not be mention actually delivering a product.

Developers and architects don’t have time for workarounds to get our work done.

I feel that WPF will not be subject to the emerging technology issues above. WinForms has not been affected by new releases of Visual Studio the way ASP.NET has. This was another factor in my decision.

Please keep in mind, my product is huge. For small projects none of this matters since you can simply revisit the UI and make required adjustments or take advantage of new platform enhancements. For large projects, this could be a major investment of time, better to spend the time on functionality and features, or heaven forbid, documentation.

Outside Influences

WPF code is not affected by the WC3 or Microsoft’s implementation of a CSS standard.  I’m not Microsoft bashing, just stating the reality we must deal with.

Developers of large scale applications need a stable platform and development toolset.

For many years before moving into the Microsoft world, I was a VAX-VMS, Alpha-VMS and SCO UNIX developer. Nothing is more stable or changes less than a VAX. Reboots measured in years. I really miss my VAX. All my VAX applications are still in production today and being used by a 7 billion dollar a year U.S. corporation.

Time To Market

We are a very small company and currently I’m the only one with skills outside of Access/SQL Server.  I’ve been mentoring and teaching .NET, ASP.NET, VB.NET, HTML, AJAX & CSS so others can work on our Citizen Web product.  Additionally, I’ve been working with a co-worker on WPF and Blend.  These technologies are not learned over night.  The transition from an Access VBA developer to an O/O .NET developer is a steep learning curve and will take a lot of hard work. 

I have a program I wrote for ASP.NET to generate the web pages and data layer.  We have done the same for WPF including the business entities and data layers.  I’ve also introduced, “Declarative Programming” into the architecture of our business entities.  The new code generator supports this cool feature.  WPF, WinForms and ASP.NET user interfaces can take full advantage of the, “Declarative Programming” in the BLL.

With WPF, we only have one technology to work with, as opposed to HTML, ASP.NET, AJAX, CSS, which are also evolving. When I say WPF, I mean WPF from a business forms perspective. Clean, fast, user friendly, bullet proof UI is what our customers are looking for.

Without any doubt, WPF gives our company the ability to focus more on business functionality than coding technologies. This is very important to our small company with limited resources developing a feature rich application.

User Experience

Do I need to say anything here? Rich interactivity, resolution independence, super fast UI.

WPF takes full advantage of the user’s hardware, especially the monitor. Didn’t think I would list the monitor first, eh? Think user!

With a web application, you really need to “target” a screen resolution. Most of our pages are business forms that users interact with. If we target 1024 x 768 and Mr. Smith gets a new computer with a 22″ wide screen monitor (less than $300 today), his web application will be displayed in the upper left of his screen. Bummer.

With WPF just ViewBox it and boom, the same information displayed utilizing his full screen and he can see the form much better AND without any hacks, or lots of code to make this happen. This is a major selling point for us, considering our target market.

WPF takes full advantage of the users CPU/GPU for processing. Today all our customers can afford an Intel 2 Core Duo system. As all readers of this know, these babies are super fast.

Browser vs. Windows – New Section

This is an area that one of my responses to a comment brought out and I should have included this in the original posting.

My customers are small city & county governments and water authorities around the country. Their average PC has a 17″ or 19″ monitor with resolution set at either 800×600 or 1024×768. If we delivered a browser application we would have to deal with the fact that the browser itself takes up a good bit of vertical screen space. Then add that, users customizing their browser with special toolbars, search gadgets, etc. and more vertical screen space is lost.

Trust me, I did a lot of research on this. Went and looked a customer desktop setup. Looked at the way other people I know have their browser configured. Many variations. Well, from a business forms perspective, I didn’t want any of my forms to scroll except for data grids or reports. So, with all the possible variations of browser configurations out there, now what is my target vertical measurement, 500, 575? Again, a mess. Running IE full screen gets rid of this problem, but also causes issues for the user.  Then what is most users like full screen and others didn’t?  I did look into creating browser applications so that the normal IE toolbar and menu bar is hidden. But there were other issues so we didn’t do this either.

With WPF or WinForm, you give up almost no vertical space, just the little title bar. I can live with that.

Web User Experience Side Note

For all you bloggers and web site developers out there, WHY, WHY do you still insist on using fixed fonts on your web sites? Users should be able to use the browser Text Size feature on all web pages. It should be illegal to have fixed fonts on web sites, period! Can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to copy your sites into Microsoft Word just so I could read them. Please stop doing this. OK, I’m off my high horse and/or soap box.

Less Technical Resources Required At Our Customer’s Site

With ASP.NET, our customers have to maintain an Intranet site.

With WPF this requirement is removed from the equation.

A good number of our customers use Small Business Server. That server is already handling SQL Server databases, Reporting Services, Exchange Server, Domain Controller functions and probably file and print services as well.

With a WPF product the workstation CPU’s offload some processing burdens from the SBS Server.

SliverLight 2.0 – New Section

The feedback I received from the initial posting was remarkable.  Wow, never knew there was this much interest.  On question I received over and over again, referred to SilverLight 2.0.

Our decision was make in June of 2007.  At that point SilverLight (WPF/E) was still a very new and evolving product.  As we know, large scale line of business applications typically stay with current and proven technologies so that they won’t have bleeding edge blues.  This was the reason I didn’t mention SL 2.0.

Once SilverLight 2.0 ships sometime in Q1 2008, I will be building business forms ( so will many others ) with it and will post an in-depth review here and/or on Code Project.  Even if it takes until SilverLight 3.0 for this to be mainstream, that will be OK.  This will provide another delivery platform for our products.  Looking forward to it.

Deployment

With ClickOnce we have many options available for deployment.  This can overcome some objections that a browser application is easier to deploy.  We will be looking closer at this as time goes by.

Conclusion

My company thought long and hard about this decision. The future of our company depends on this product being successful.

Many of our competitors have gone the way of the web based application.  Sometimes I think they are following that trend.  I have been doing this a long time and like so many things in life, everything comes full circle.

Our product will be delivered using WPF and WCF. Our product will have a web front end for citizens of our customers to interact with their city or county government or their water authority.

So based on your company’s long term resources, your customers needs, your applications scope, choose the technology and platform that is a best fit and enjoy the process as you deliver your next awesome application!

Just a grain of sand on the worlds beaches.

45 Responses to “Reasons For Choosing WPF Over ASP.NET For Our Very Large Project”

  1. AJAX coding school » Blog Archive » AJAX Demos [2007-12-20 05:33:45] Says:

    [...] Reasons For Choosing WPF Over ASP.NET For Very Large Project By Karl Shifflett Even for the demo ASP.NET AJAX application I did, I had to code for IE6, IE7 and had to provide special setup directions for IE7 on Vista so they could print reports. Remember the “peek-a-boo” bug? Better not go there. … Karl On WPF – .Net – http://karlshifflett.wordpress.com [...]

  2. Josh Smith Says:

    Splendidly written, illuminating, well thought out, and humorous. Wow, what a post!! Thank you for taking the time to share this excellent information.

    By the way, you forgot one other reason to use WPF. Because it ROCKS. :-D

    Thanks,
    Josh

  3. WPF vs. ASP.NET - An Architect’s Perspective « Josh Smith on WPF Says:

    [...] http://karlshifflett.wordpress.com/2007/12/20/reasons-for-choosing-wpf-over-aspnet-for-very-large-pr... [...]

  4. craigshoemaker Says:

    Karl:

    I enjoyed your article. I am curious though… if Silverlight 2.0 were available today, would that change your decision?

    Craig Shoemaker

  5. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Craig,

    Very interesting question. Back in April I posted several messages on MSDN about using WPF/E and XBAP’s. As you can see, I was trying to find a way to get the new technology and stay with the browser.

    I am super excited about the new SilverLight 2.0 release Q1 2008 and love what Scott Gu writes about it.

    Without having actually used the product, I can’t render a good answer. That being said, I will be making business forms in SilverLight 2.0 the week Microsoft releases it. Even if it takes until SilverLight 3.0, I think that this technology will be a very good fit for many projects.

    I’m also excited about developing Mole for SilverLight 2.0!

    Craig thank you for the qustion, hope I answered it and have a great day!

    Karl

  6. Republic Says:

    Great article, well thought.
    I would like to let you know that my experience with ClickOnce has been really rewarding. We are a small ISV and our new packaged products are smart clients, working disconnected and interacting with web services, so we would not have been able to face deployment without ClickOnce.

  7. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Republic,

    Thank you for your kind remarks and good information about ClickOnce. We think this technology will work for our deployments also. For most of our customers, I’m looking at establishing a ClickOnce source at each of their sites, as well as one here for our hosted customers.

    Have a great day and thank you!

    Karl

  8. kevindan Says:

    Hi Karl,

    So glad to read your great blog and the decision reached. I have been doing VB6/WinForm/WPF for quite a while. I believe in WPF/SL2.0/WCF technologies very strongly. Really glad to learn your well thoughts from ASP.NET side.

    Given you will do 200 forms, I am wondering if you are considering CAB/WPF for the project.

    Also curious about how do you keep the sync between WPF and SilverLight 2.0 for business forms, given the current release of SL feature in-completion.

    Many thanks to the Mole team for the tremendous effort make it better, and better… it’s a Christmas gift – the time when I am going to dive into the features and code.

    Cheers,
    Kevin

  9. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Kevin,

    Thank you for your very kind remarks. Team Mole is very happy to hear from another satisified user of Mole!

    We are currently not doing SilverLight business forms at my work. The business forms project will be WPF, WCF. So we won’t have a sync issue (at least for now).

    I’m not quite sure what you are referring to when you say, CAB/WPF. I know about CAB files and using them for deployment.

    Thanks again for your comments.

    Have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year,

    Karl

  10. Josh Smith Says:

    I think Kevin was referring to the Composite UI Application Block (CAB). It’s a WinForms platform that allows for all types of neat and useful features. The Acropolis project is what MS has been creating for WPF, to parallel CAB for WinForms. But there hasn’t been much activity that I’ve seen in the Acropolis space recently, so who knows when that will be released.

    Josh

  11. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Josh,

    Thank you for clearing this up for me. I live such a sheltered life. I need to get out more and see the world.

    I need to look into Acropolis so I don’t let that ship sail without me.

    Thanks Rock Star!

    Karl

  12. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Josh,

    That train has left the station (w/o me). Wow, Acropolis looks very cool. (so much more to learn). I watched the RSS Feed videos. Nice looking UI and some cool features.

    The world is moving SO fast.

    Karl

  13. kevindan Says:

    Yes, I was referring Composite UI Application Block and Smart Client Software Factory from MS Pattern and Practice. http://www.codeplex.com/smartclient

    Yes, CAB is built for WinForm, while it’s useful with WPF as well. There is a WPFCAB – Full port of CAB to WPF. Supports pure WPF Shell, SmartParts and Workspaces. http://www.codeplex.com/scsfcontrib

    Acropolis has been dropped recently, Windows Composite Client is born for replacing CAB – it would be available some time in the second half of 2008.http://blogs.msdn.com/gblock/archive/2007/10/26/wpf-composite-client-guidance-it-s-coming.aspx

    Some consider CAB/SCSF are over complicate, but according to my experience, it’s quite suitable for hundreds business forms LOB application development. It enables container/module based development, like the web portal – DotNetNuke and SharePoint. To make a decision of adopting them and how to use them in the product/project development is not a easy task. The team resources are the primary factor after product/project suitability.

    Happy Holidays to you and Josh,
    Kevin

  14. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Kevin,

    Thank you for this very detailed information. A name change from the product team, signals a new product is coming, so this is a good thing.

    Thanks again!

    Karl

  15. codebandit Says:

    Microsoft has stopped working on the Acropolis project and instead choose to go in a different directiion for WPF. See the following link for more details:

    http://blogs.msdn.com/gblock/archive/2007/10/26/wpf-composite-client-guidance-it-s-coming.aspx

    I would also recommend checking out the MS P&P Folks guidance for smart client development. http://www.codeplex.com/smartclient

    Todd

  16. Josh Smith Says:

    Karl,

    Why did you choose WPF instead of WinForms?

    Josh

  17. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Code Bandit,

    Thank you for this great information. I’m reading right now. I really appreciate the time you took to leave this message for everyone.

    Have a great day,

    Karl

  18. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Josh,

    Let me get the next release of Mole out the door and come back to this probing question of WPF & WinForms.

    Off the top of my head, tip of the spear comes to mind!

    What can I say, I love WPF and did the first time I looked at it in April of 2007. WPF has to be one of the best technologies to come out of Redmond.

    Best to you Rock Star,

    Karl

  19. Josh Smith Says:

    Here’s a great article about WPFCC (the replacement for Acropolis). http://neverindoubtnet.blogspot.com/2007/10/requiem-for-acropolis-fanfare-for-cab.html

    Josh
    (a.k.a. Rock Star) :)

  20. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Thanks again!

    Karl

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  23. sarafian Says:

    I’m very sorry but I first posted at Josh Smith’s blog because i wasn’t registered at wordpress.

    My Comment as posted in on Josh Smith’s blog

    Since we are in the process of selecting an architecture, I’m trying to convince my company to adopt WPF.

    One of the most interesting parts which you don’t mention (correct my if I’m wrong) is that Silverlight 2.0 will support all of the .NET functionality and all of the WPF controls. Also from what I have read Microsoft is preparing to expand Silverlight cross platform support into Linux (can you verify?)

    This means that we can create an application and just present it through internet explorer without ClickOnce. This is a concern because in Greece, where I live Application Architecture negatives/positives are not always the key factor of selecting one. Because of ignorance, names are more important. For example the hear internet explorer and everything else doesn’t matter.

    If Silverlight gets support for Linux then our application will be able to run not only in Windows and MacOS and Microsoft wpf applications are going to be sold/developed for EU Goverment services that have already adopted Linux for their infrastructure like Germany for various reasons. This means wider customer variety.

    But my biggest concern is whether when selling date comes, if there will be an adoption of more powerfull computers by companies, and vista os which is mandatory to access all hardware acceleration layers of WPF.

    The last is a dilema that also you do not address, and I believe it to be the most important, especially if the new product targets companies intranet and not private computers on the web which are generally more up to date with technology. For example let me remind the relactanse of large companies to adopt Vista in their intranet infrastructure.This get’s bigger in Greek companies.

    So for me this dilema is the most significant because we are a time, that IT departments of large companies fight Vista and support XP. If Microsoft could manage to implement all hardware accelerated layers of WPF in XP also then it would be great. But at this moment it is not clear whether there will be addoption of Vista, mainly because more powerfull computers are going to be required. Indirectly this will cause the cost of buing a WPF application to increase.

    Sorry for my english, I’m trying my best.

  24. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Alex,

    Just read the post at Josh’s site and left a response.

    Very good comments here! I wish you and your company the best on your platform choice.

    I left Sliverlight 2.0 out of the mix because we do not have the Q1 2008 bits available to test yet.

    Also, we made our decision back in June of 2007. At that time I did look at WPF/E and XBAP’s in detail and even posted messages on MSDN. I think the newest SilverLight 2.0 to be released Q1 2008 will sweeten the pie and possibly give developers the choice of placing business applications in a browser. If not 2.0 then 3.0. Josh had told me to post this article in June of 2007 but I let it slip through the cracks.

    Yes, the “Internet Explorer” buzz is here in the U.S. too. It is a trend that many have followed, some because it makes perfect sense from a business and development perspective, others because “the crowd” was doing it. In the U.S. we call that, “keep up with the Joneses.” You can read the Wiki Keeping Up…

    It took me months of educating people and explaining the differences between a browser application and a WPF application. I had to set up all kinds of tests. Local network, remote network, remote connection over the Internet without VPN, remote connection over VPN, etc.

    It also came down to which is simpler and faster. WPF is simpler, it has less buttons, not IE buttons or toolbar for the user to look at when they are entering accounting information. It also gave them more vertical screen space. In WPF, our applications have more vertical space. For 1024 x 768 this is a big factor. I should have put this in the article and I will edit it in tonight.

    Faster. IE must bring down the UI and data when the pages change. WPF only needs the data. MUCH less bandwidth required.

    As far a target computers go, the application we are delivering, actually targets Win XP with a monitor running at 1024 x 768. In other words, an average computer that would be found on the desktop of a small city government employee. Single CPU, 17-19 monitor, no fancy graphics card. Our applications run just fine on these system, even over remote data scenarios via the Internet and remote data over VPN.

    Let me make a suggestion. Take two of your average computers, one running IE the other WPF. Place a standard business form in the ASP.NET application and the WPF application. Now let a average users provide feedback which is cleaner, which will take less training. Here is another good form to test on. Most accounting or business applications have the necessity for heads down entry. The operator has a stack of checks that must get keyed into the computer. The typically open the screen and without ever look at the screen, type the amount and check number into the form and run a deposit tape. I question if a web based form could keep up with a typical accounting persons 10 Key skills; I doubt it.

    Thank you so very much for sharing and for making me think and defend WPF.

    I guess I can start a new series written by the, “WPF Apologist” Josh, I need HELP!

    Best to you on your project. You are the tip of the spear!

    Karl

  25. sarafian Says:

    Karl again sorry for the inconvieniece , you double posting on Josh’s blog

    I find very interesting what you say, and there was never a need for you to defend it, bacause I already agreed with WPF.

    I beleive WPF to be a revolution such as Windows was for DOS.

    But because I am just a programmer and not into logistics and account, I merely put out some of their concerns and others that came to me, in order to further the discussion.

  26. Karl on ASP vs WPF « Alex Sarafian as Developer Says:

    [...] post can be found here and my comments [...]

  27. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Alex,

    Your questions were valid and I’m sure 100’s of other readers were thinking the same thing.

    I’m going to update or writa a new post soon to include this infomation and more of the insider information on our decision.

    An average user is your best tester. Write them two applications, web based and WPF based and let them give you honest feedback. This way you are getting feeback from the person who will actually have to live with the product. Sometimes users just need some education and then can ” feel the love”

    Thanks again for these probing and important questions,

    Karl

  28. sarafian Says:

    I will try to convince my company to reserve the time.

  29. marlongrech Says:

    Hey Karl,

    Nice article…. I understand what you mean 100%… ASP.NET is brilliant but browsers are evil!!!

    Regards

  30. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Marlon,

    Yep! I was reading yesterdays posts on IE8. They claim the team is efforting standards compliance.

    What I always thought should happen is all the browser geeks (vendors) get into one room, all get their paycheck from the same company and write a browser than works the same on all platforms, Win, Max, Linix, UNIX, etc (to the degree possible).

    Then the Internet and web programming would be SO MUCH better. If software vendor “A” needed a feature, no problem, submit the request to the company and it will get done.

    I guess I have a very simplistic view of problems and solutions.

    Best to you,

    Karl

  31. paulselormey Says:

    Hmmm,
    I found your post very difficult to understand. May be the current WPF will.

    1. What ASP.NET site required the 500 forms?
    When you write it with the WPF will you still need the 500 forms?

    2. Today all my customers can afford Intel 2 Core Duo!!!
    This got me confused the more. But your customers will not afford to update to IE7?
    You also mix some citizen stuff in, they will all afford the Intel 2 Core Duo?

    You started talking about Web application and ended up with rich-client, so I think your comparison should rather have being with WinForms.
    I also work for a small company here in Japan that create solutions for many big companies here including the car companies – we never decide which CPU the customers must use, and most of those companies run Win2000! and are not going to update today or tomorrow.

    Best regards,
    Paul.

  32. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Paul,

    Thanks for leaving your comments. Sorry for the confustion.

    We have an application that will have 500 forms. So as a company we need to make a decision based on many factors, which platform we will be using.

    Some customers asked about moving our application suite to ASP.NET. We also investigated WPF and WinForms.

    This post is about why I chose WPF over ASP.NET.

    I hope that answers your point #1.

    #2. I mentioned browsers because they always change. I don’t want to release a huge web product that requires a certain browser version of IE. Some customers are very slow in upgrading their computers and I don’t blame them.

    I have many customers on Windows 2000 and you can’t put IE 7 on Win 2000.

    As far as the 2 Core Duo remark, this was referrnig to customers that adopt the WPF product. It was a side remark and has nothing to do with requirments. I run our applications on a Pent IV and they run great.

    Hope this helps,

    Karl

  33. paulselormey Says:

    Karl,
    Thanks for the response. I understand most, still needs some help!

    What type of application requires the 500 forms? I still find it difficult to imagine.

    IE7 will not run on Win2000 so is WPF. So, what really is the application requirements like? (better still, will your customers and their citizens run XP or later?)

    Best regards,
    Paul.

  34. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Paul,

    Hope I can clear this up for you.

    We already have a huge Access/SQL Server applcation that is used to run small city government as water authorities.

    Modules inclue, GL, AP, AR, Inventory, Real Tax, Property Tex, Tax Assessment, Revenue, Utility Billing, Code Compliance, etc.

    When you total up the forms and subform, report starter screens, 500 is a low number.

    Didn’t understand what you meant by, “IE7 will not run on Win2000 so is WPF” What does this mean?

    To answer the question about customers, our customers know the new product will run on XP Pro or above.

    In this article, I only brought up IE6 and IE7, Win2000, XP, Vista as a point to illustrate the 2 years from now, there is really NO way to tell, how browsers will render web pages. I’ve been doing web development a very long time and no the browser issues very well.

    Like I said in the article, for small projects this is not an issue, for huge applications like this one, having to code for browswer varations over time would be a big pain and a drain on resources.

    Karl

  35. paulselormey Says:

    Karl,
    Thanks for the information.
    I or you seems to be equating 500 forms to 500 ASP.NET forms.

    “IE7 will not run on Win2000 so is WPF” …just adding to your earlier statement “you can’t put IE 7 on Win 2000″.

    *To answer the question about customers, our customers know the new product will run on XP Pro or above.*
    Nice to know every citizens of small city are all running XP Pro or above.

    Best regards,
    Paul.

  36. peteohanlon Says:

    Karl

    Interesting post. The rant about fixed font sizes is perfectly legit – in fact, here in the UK, it IS illegal to use fixed font sizes. For those that don’t know, we have a Disability Discrimination Law that covers this – so many businesses publish websites that are viewable at 1 resolution only and that is unforgivable.

  37. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Pete,

    Yes it is!

    We should start a club, get hats and jackets, “Stamp Out Fixed Fonts Sizes!”

    Cheers

  38. darrins Says:

    Karl,

    I’d love to develop with WPF. We are an ASP.NET and WinForms shopt. The one obstacle that keeps me from pulling the trigger on WPF is there no built-in datagrid control?

    Bummer.

    Nice article though.

    -Darrin

  39. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Darrin,

    Pull the trigger. Microsoft has one coming. There are many free WPF grids out there today also.

    I’m just using a grid we did for now, it works fine for simple editing and displaying.

    Cheers,

    Karl

  40. rvindh Says:

    Karl,

    Thanks for the post.

    I need a suggestion from you.

    i have rich b2c asp.net application which are use by outside world(internet).

    If that has to be revamped then we cannot use WPF becoz we cannot expect our users to have framework 3.0 / vista. We can be only sure of one thing that is IE 6.0

    In that case i cannot go for WPF and i have to use ASP.NET with silverlight.

    Is my understanding correct ?

    would really Appreciate your thoughts?

    thanks
    Aravind

  41. Karl Shifflett Says:

    Aravind,

    B2C is probably better as an ASP.NET application. You can use Silverlight 2 with ASP.NET. This version has many new rich capabilites and many new tools are being released for Silverlight 2.

    You’ll need to take a very close look at your requirements for your B2C. ASP.NET with AJAX is a super platform for this. Also, with IE8 coming, many CSS compliant issues should be resolved.

    If your B2C site is working, I would stick with it. Let Silverlight get out of beta and let more articles and example code be published before diving in. Now is a good time to start learning it. I’m working on my first Silverlight 2 application and will be publishing an article this week.

    Let me know if you need any more help.

    Best to you,

    Karl

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